I have still been thinking about waterboarding and torture. I firmly believe that the United States should not be involved in torture, but I couldnt reconcile my indifference or actually my encouragement of the use of waterboarding on the person it was used on....
Until it clicked in my head that ultimately, I dont think that waterboarding is torture. I just dont.
I believe that it is something that can be used with the permission of the HIGHEST AUTHORITY in our Country (that means the President) as it was in the past and that is fine with me. He is held accountable if and when it is used. If President Obama does not want to waterboard any more, that is fine with me to, but at the same time, the ultimate responsibility if something happens to this Country rests on him. If he lets his chance pass to keep this Country safe and he doesnt get it done, he cant blame "W" - the death, the blood, the blame, falls directly on BO. It is his call....
There is concern that if we allow this kind of thing on terrorists or whatever, that ultimately it will be used on Patriots. May be. But if this kind of hoopla happens upon the use of waterboarding on a scumbag, imagine the revolt if its used on a Patriot. If things deteriorate to the point that Patriots are taken and waterboarded, things are deteriorating very quickly and this is the least of our worries. Revolution would be the ultimate result.
I know that other Patriots will and do disagree with the above and what is so excellent is the discourse which follows. The true understanding of Patriots that disagreement does not mean we are not ultimately on the same side - the amazing document of the Constitution, the perfection of it - was only attained through vigorous disagreement - the debate of the issues refined it to where we wish we could be today.
I do know that what men did with permission of the President they should NOT be held against them today and if another country wants to try them, they can just go to Hell!!
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it is a fine line, Aint It, Lady/ I'm with you here... just that whomever makes those decisions really does have a LOT of responsibility to make it a sound one...
blessings...
C.
"I do know that what men did with permission of the President they should NOT be held against them today"
Well that did not fly with the Nuremberg trials, or the Tokyo trials - Every one convicted did hard labor for years or was hung by the neck until dead.
I have to ask who was right? I am sure more than a few Japanese and Germans would have said the exact same thing as you have.
My test is simple, if done to me or one of my children or wife, or friends - could I watch it, all of it start to finish and not call it torture? Could I keep from wanting to tear someone apart for that?
We owe some Japanese, a few Vietnamese, a few Vietnam Vets, and at least one Sheriff an apology for convicting them of war crimes - it is the pure hypocrisy of the republican excuse factories for this has made me sick, (know me know I hate the democrats more) all that effort to get their bud "W" off the hook and try and keep the neocons in power is transparent. If this were Clinton the democrats would be doing the same and we would once again play the fools as both sides pick our pockets and tighten the handcuffs more. I have been drowned twice, I of course lived past both events and I would under no circumstances allow myself to voluntarily experience that procedure.
Sad thing is that using past US judgments all of the soldiers "just following orders" are guilty of war crimes and that ultimate guilt sits on the office of the POTUS, yet it still does not change the fact that because of blind faux patriotism our empire has created war criminals and what seems to be an endless line of monsters unaware of their puppet strings.
I guess I need to take a shovel with me to Germany next time - I have some dead soldiers to dig up and give an apology to, we hung innocent men! - they were only following orders...
If you believe in "karma" we are about to reap a whirlwind of hurt...
Are we ready?
I agree with Pearls. Waterboarding is not torture.
The difference between this and Nazi Germany is what happened in those camps was torture.
What those men did then cannot be compared with what the CIA did to one person to get information to save many.
To state it this way is not an excuse to justify behavior.
As far as being able to watch....I hate seeing my husband spank anyone of my kids and it just about kills me to watch although I know when its done (and very rarely) it works and I would put my kids up against anyones - well, except that last one, we are still working on him - bless his cute little heart :)
As far as I know it's still acceptable to shoot spys. By the very nature of a terrorist's mode of operation they all fit the definition of a spy.
I say save the water...just shove their Corhan's up their asses and give em a double tap! Look at all the virgins we've kept waiting..
Well, its not like I did not know I was a minority opinion on the "wing nut" side of the isle...
All I can say folks is "Karma is a bitch"...
Are you all ready for it - it's coming.
All of us are going to pay for our governments illegal and immoral actions financial and military.
Hold on tight, we are past the point of asking where are we going and why are we in the hand-basket.
My love of country does not depend on our ability to bully the world with the do as I say not as I do attitude.
I guess I have a sheriff and some Japanese soldiers to hand apologies to... We are either right or wrong - our government had ben very wrong for a very long time...
Pearls,
You say you know waterboarding isn't torture. How do you 'know' this?
If you're open-minded, please read these first-hand accounts of people who have actually experienced waterboarding.
US Soldier's first hand experience of being waterboarded
http://www.nydailynews.com/opinions/2007/10/31/2007-10-31_i_know_waterboarding_is_torture__because.html?page=1
American Soldier and his Japanese Torturer on Waterboarding vs other forms of torturer experience from WWII
http://www.heathermallick.ca/cbc.ca-columns/the-torture-of-waterboarding-then-and-now.html
Journalist Experiences Waterboarding first hand
http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2008/08/hitchens200808
Anon -
If you read what I wrote, I wrote that I DONT THINK IT IS.... I never said that I KNOW it isnt torture....
So, what IS torture? Staying up for 3 days straight? Playing Barney music? Not letting convicts have cable TV?
Personally, there is such thing as being UNPLEASANT -REALLY REALLY UNPLEASANT and TORTURE.
To me, Torture leaves scars, it leaves marks - it doesnt let you raise your hands over your head for the rest of your life.
I dont want to argue emotional scars either - if it is torture, why do we do it to our own troops?
We do know what torture is we have a LAW that clearly spells this out.
This is not a question of the news media covering for bad government decisions - it is distracting us from the real issue.
Can the government and it's minions BREAK THE LAW and get away with it.
Clearly we have had nothing but for quite some time.
Letting the neocons distract us from the real issue will allow this to become the way we judge the actions of the government - this will ALL be used against us and soon...
U.S. Code: Title 18, Section 2340
TITLE 18 - PART I - CHAPTER 113C - § 2340
(1) “torture” means an act committed by a person acting under the color of law specifically intended to inflict severe physical or mental pain or suffering (other than pain or suffering incidental to lawful sanctions) upon another person within his custody or physical control;
(2) “severe mental pain or suffering” means the prolonged mental harm caused by or resulting from—
(A) the intentional infliction or threatened infliction of severe physical pain or suffering;
(B) the administration or application, or threatened administration or application, of mind-altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or the personality;
(C) the threat of imminent death; or
(D) the threat that another person will imminently be subjected to death, severe physical pain or suffering, or the administration or application of mind-altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or personality; and
(3) “United States” means the several States of the United States, the District of Columbia, and the commonwealths, territories, and possessions of the United States.
"if it is torture, why do we do it to our own troops?"
Precisely because it IS a method of torture; that's why we prepare our troops for it. I.E. we're going to prepare you (troops) for a method of torture which might be used on you if captured.
I ask this in all humility. Did you read the articles?
My point is that you and I may have opinions about whether or not it is torture, but the people who have experienced it actually KNOW whether it is or not. For them it's not a matter of conjecture.
It makes no sense to say that its wrong to do on the enemy, but its perfectly fine to do to our own troops.
And yes, I did copy/paste all the articles, but the third, the Vanity Fair, did not come up. I do find it interesting that those articles are firmly in the "left" camp in regards to reporting.
I would also like to know what wakes John McCain up at night....is it the waterboarding or is it the other things done to him. If he had to pick something to do to someone ot save hundreds if not thousands of US lives, which of the things done to him would he pick...
I have never said it isnt unpleasant, to believe that you are drowing, to feel as you are is not something I would like to endure or watch my kids endure - but between this and them slamming into the side of a building, its a no brainer.
It is also real easy to take shots at what NOT TO DO - but what would you do? How would you get information from someone that doesnt want to give it up? Lets hear what fabulous ideas that are out there that work, but for some reason the CIA or the US Government does not do....
And again....again...again....this is my OPINION.... those that have been thru this may agree with me or they may not - its their right to do so. But if we truly believe that we are "above" some of these things, then you better be willing to suffer the consequences - every single last resulting consequence - without one word of remorse, regret or condemnation of those that are expected to protect the United States.
I am not advocating all out torture of prisoners - there is a line. We just happen to disagree on that line. And also, because of this topic getting such play in the media, it likely wont be used again and it hasnt since 2003...
"It is also real easy to take shots at what NOT TO DO - but what would you do? How would you get information from someone that doesnt want to give it up? Lets hear what fabulous ideas that are out there that work, but for some reason the CIA or the US Government does not do...."
By what right do you believe it's righteous to "get information from someone that doesn't want to give it up", much less to use force to do so?
Anon - This isnt military vs. military trying to get information on stragedy.
This is a terrorist, a coward, who goes after INNOCENTS - thats where the RIGHTEOUSNESS lies.
And I answered your question - but you ducked mine....
How about answering if you are willing to put innocents in the way of harm if you knew it was coming but arent willing to find out the details....
Or maybe tell me how you would find out any information besides just saying "Please"....
Please do not bother to respond unless you answer my question first...
Pearls,
My answer to your question is that I believe it's never right to do wrong. There is no such thing as situational ethics.
We either follow the rule of law, or "anything goes depending on how you look at it".
And thats where we differ. I do not believe its wrong. I do not believe its torture (which is wrong).
Its not situational...
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