I am sure by now we have all heard about how the Mastermind of the 9/11 attacks was waterboarded 183 times in March of 2003. Sucks to be him. Really, that March must have been a nightmare.... And 183 times is a along time - I mean, thats several times a day. Actually, according to my calculater it is pretty much 6 times a day.
I wonder if after the 100th time, he realized that they werent really going to kill him, so it just didnt bother him so much. Do you realize how clean his ears and hair must have been and how pruney his fingers were?
And now I hear that a bunch of people are really upset about it and want those that did it prosecuted. I mean, they are really REALLY mad.... So you know what? In all my Solomon Wisdom I have come to a conclusion.....
If those people that are so upset THINK THAT THEY ARE ABOVE THOSE THAT LOST FAMILY on 9/11, then they can have their way. I havent actually talked with anyone that has lost someone that day and havent heard any news reports. I do know that my dad and brother were scuba diving IN THE RED SEA, for the love, that day and it was a really REALLY worrisome several days until they could get off the boat and pretty much rushed/smuggled out of Egypt to the UK and then back home.
I have a feeling that those that lost someone on 9/11 just casually looked at the front page to see how many times this guy "thought" he was going to die drowning and then muttered something along the lines of "I wish my loved one could have ONLY THOUGHT they were dying" and tossed the paper on the recycle heap or better yet, into the fire.
And in regards to torture - if we keep wetting it down, eventually sitting in a cell will constitute that - hell, I think a cardboard paper cut counts as that....
Do not forget what this man did and what he must know as you look at what our Country did to keep you safe. If you do not like what it did, then may I assume you are volunteering your child or husband or wife to die first before mine in the next attack because honestly, deep down, I cheer these men and women who do this and know that the only way they can is to keep THE END GOAL in mind.
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I liked this one.....on another note-my word verification is undergel-what the heck....not where I live.
Pearls generally I agree with what you write but not today. Torture is a dangerous road to start down.
The argument against it is the same as any other "big government" argument. If you give .gov an inch now they will want to take a mile later. It happens every time and generally for the worse of the American public.
They may not be waterboarding citizens yet but how long would that take? I can see a very good justification for waterboarding drug users and dealers so that you can get higher up the food chain without cutting deals to the lower guys. Does this make it OK? How about waterboarding the fellow who you "think" committed that hit and run, or the guy you caught speeding that won't admit it?
Another reason to be against torture now is that if the union starts to dissolve and we find ourselves in a fight for the constitution and the values of our fore fathers then I don't want real patriots being tortured because I didn't stand up and speak against it now.
I'm not saying that the guy didn't deserve it but I would have preferred he be hanged instead of tortured.
In this instance the ends don't justify the means by any stretch of the imagination.
I am going to have to agree with Everyday Prepper on this one...
We have problems with this because we as a country have committed war crimes, in WWII we stacked up war crimes like a wood pile, and at the end of the war we executed enemy soldiers and officers for this EXACT THING...
Let me repeat that - The US executed enemy soldiers and officers of WWII for torture, in particular we executed for the war crime of water-boarding.
We have no moral ground to stand on, in fact we lost much of our "moral grounds" a long time ago covering up our own war crimes from The Great War, WWII, Korea, Vietnam and now the Mid East.
Are we justified with a trial, yes, should it be a fair trail - again I say a big YES.
Christians are always talking about the moral high ground and returning the country to a "moral base" - no Christian can justify torture, or "collateral damage" (killing women and children) and with an honest and moral conscience talk of or promote Christianity.
Without the love of freedom and the constitution, THAT SPECIFICALLY FORBIDS TORTURE our country is lost to empire, and a powerful empire along with religious zealots had the central person in Jesus (of Christianity) tortured and killed.
I have never had the misfortune of suffering under water-boarding but I have had two experiences with drowning and survived - I can assure you there is no "getting used to it" - we have people in our government that are clearly evil and prosecution for this should go all the way to the top, we have executed war criminals for water-boarding, I expect no less than that for our own actions.
I'd still be waterboarding him six times a day.
Everyday and Radio - I totally understand your point of view. And in general, agree with yall on just about everything. In regards to torture, there is the philisophical argument and the practical one.
Philosophically, I hate the idea of it and believe we are above it. I hate children, mothers, fathers, sisters, brothers, flying into buildings or having to crash their plane into the ground to save lives even more....
Practically, I fall on the other side.
If you want to know about torture, I would think John McCain and James Bond Stockdale were tortured - bones broken, beaten, TORTURED with everything short of death done - horror movie stuff done and yes, they were also waterboarded. I also know that they think its torture.
Practically, I want to know what those against waterboarding would do to get information. REAL information that would save lives. Waterboarding this individual saved lives that were targetted in LA.
These men were made to think they were going to die - harsh, horrible and awful it has to be, but they werent beaten, they didnt have their shoulders dislocated, fingers broken, unimmaginable things done to them.
Honestly, there was nothing done in March of 2008 to this "man" that isnt done to our men and women in their training in our US Forces for Special Opperations.
We are above torture - we are above gassing people - above beheading - above lining people up and shooting them into mass graves. Are there those that wear the US uniform that forget this sometimes - yes and they should be prosecuted. Abu Ghraib comes to mind - that was humiliation and was wrong.
But in regards to waterboarding in particular, used in very specific cases with the authority to do so resting with the President alone, I can live with it - and so does the person being waterboarded.
Of course, with this current President - the non-use of this may result in real lives being lost - and that I would hate to see more.
Wow, I was donning my flame-resistant clothing, prepared to voice my disagreement, and EverydayPrepper and RadioBlogger both stole my thunder!
In addition to what they both said, my issue is that it doesn't seem American to do it. I honestly believe we are better than the rest of those savages.
I don't have to like what our country has become, but I'm still proud to be an American. My ideal of what our country SHOULD be is what guides me.
We need to set the example, not jump on board because everyone else is doing it. Some experts say it works, some say it doesn't. Apparently, it worked this time, or so we're being told.
That being said, I must agree with a point you made in your comment/reply: I would agree with a law that gave the president, and the president only, the power to authorize torture for extreme circumstances. This power could not be delegated - each and every request would need to be made and documented directly to the president. Every instance would need to be made public shortly after it was granted.
I do believe there are circumstances in which we must act in a manner which is counter to our normal SOP. But they need to be exceedingly few and far between.
The biggest problem will be...
Will you be against waterboarding when the police state in the United States starts using it and other torture on "patriots" (they will read that as "domestic terrorists") - if so go for it, we are already an empire...
In fact why don't we continue without reservation ethnic cleansing and ruin of our enemy, say bad things and stop the oil bomb them into their graves... Why stop there, the glorious Empire of the God shining people of the United States have the right by the gifts and words of the Almighty to wash sin and heathens from the earth with fire...In diesem Augenblick vollzieht sich ein Aufmarsch, der in Ausdehnung und Umfang der größte ist, den die Welt bisher gesehen hat... Von Ostpreußen bis zu den Karpaten reichen die Formationen der deutschen Ostfront. An den Ufern des Pruth, am Unterlauf der Donau bis zu den Gestaden des Schwarzen Meeres vereinen sich unter dem Staatschef Antonescu deutsche und rumänische Soldaten....
I think we have seen this before, if any want to go there - it's a free country - at least for the moment.
"I do believe there are circumstances in which we must act in a manner which is counter to our normal SOP. But they need to be exceedingly few and far between."
OK, if that is the case our soldiers, officers, and even the POTUS himself should be ready and willing to spend the prison time or face the gallows in the same way we sent Sadam to dangle...
We are or are not an empire, if we are an empire why are we bothering to play lip service to the Constitution?
Mark my words, if we go off the cliff and fall into despotism you will sadly wish you had done everything you could have to stop this as they try out every medieval torture possible on your sons, daughters, and loved ones... My feet may likely be on the edge of a ditch for my thoughts.
I think the whole water boarding thing is really getting overblown. The guy is a total scum bag so if he gets a bit wet every 4 hours for a month I think that is just fine.
Pearls,
It seems that some people are missing the real issue. Not the waterboarding, not the issue of using torture, the value of the information obtained, or even who did the interrogating.
The issue is that Europe is *telling* the US President that he *has* to try former President Bush and staff for torture. And Obama isn't even thinking about it, "Yep! Will do!" says the supposed president of the United States.
That is the actual issue. Rather than be an American, Obama continues to hand supervision and governance of the US to Europe and the Middle East. This is not a foreign policy issue - this is about national security and national sovereignty.
Whether torture was committed, whether someone should be tried - these are American questions. Let Americans handle them - not the dictates of foreigners.
Hey Pearls.
First we don't know for sure that any of the torture committed actually saved lives. We may have learned information about attacks but who but God himself is to say that we would or wouldn't have learned about those attacks some other way. I put my faith in God and trust him to protect me. If something happens I know where I'm going so I don't need to compromise myself in order to prevent something that might or might not happen.
Again I go back to the big .gov argument. Right now they say it's to protect us from foreign terrorist, but what stops them from starting to do these things on American soil and to American citizens if we give them an inch now?
And lastly because I know you love the founding fathers as much as myself (Thomas Jefferson really is the man) I'll give you a quote from one of them (unfortunately I couldn't find a good Jefferson quote for this) :)
"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security." Benjamin Franklin
We can not bend from the morals that this country once held. We may not have always done what is right, but that doesn't mean we should stop trying just to obtain a false sense of security.
The Other Mike - no flame retardent suit needed here - I really think this discussion has been very well done - I know I have been thinking and rethinking my position to see what I think about it ;)
Everyday - Still thinking...may post again when I finish going through everything in my head....
Havent said it lately, but you guys rock!!
“The diffusion of information and the arraignment of all abuses at the bar of public reason, I deem [one of] the essential principles of our government, and consequently [one of] those which ought to shape its administration.” –Thomas Jefferson
In other words, our "leaders" and all servants are to be equally responsible for their actions good or ill, along with the records and witnesses to their deeds made public and judged under the law...
In my opinion (and you know what they say about those)-he lost his right to anything fair when he took part in killing innocent people. I don't know that torture is the answer-but he should definitely pay some consequence for his involvement in crimes against our country. Do you honestly think that a US Citizen would receive anything fair in his country, if they had committed a crime of any sort?
This question boils down to one of situational ethics -- doing evil for a 'good reason'.
I was taught this as a kid in public schools. You know, like the life boat dilema? If you were in the ocean; had a life boat with a max capacity of 12; and there were 20 people in the water; how would you decide which 12... It all seems very logical and engaging, but it leaves God out of the equation.
There is no example in the Bible of situational ethics. It's never OK to "do wrong for the right reason". Torture is not a righteous act. It doesn't matter the circumstances. It isn't right.
Situational ethics is a slippery slope. If you don't have a foundation; a bedrock; an absolute standard for right and wrong then right and wrong cease to exist.
To Rhonda, if he "lost his right to anything fair" at what point should we cross that line?
My points are simple, first if we give the government a foot in the door now, they will swing it open and rob us later. Secondly you can't stand on a moral high ground by doing evil to those you don't like. Anonymous wrote "doing good for a good reason" which made me remember this quote: "The road to hell is paved with good intentions".
I agree with you that something should be done to him but if I read my Declaration of Independence right it says that "All men are created equal" not all innocent men, not all white men, not all christians but ALL men even the guilty. I believe that all should be treated humanely even if they have done something inhumane. Does that mean I would give him a free ride, No, but I would probably have just hanged him on TV like the Iraqi's did to Saddam. I believe in justice not revenge because the Lord says "vengeance is mine".
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